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Limiting God

Christians often ask me for evidence for god’s nonexistence. Right from the start, that is a ridiculous demand. But as it turns out there is actually really strong philosophical evidence for god’s nonexistence. Christians created a God that is too perfect to exist.

The Christian theologian Anselm once defined God as a being in which no greater being can be conceived. I assume most Christians would agree with that definition since they are always telling me how all-powerful their deity is. But then they start telling me about Jesus and that is when Christians start to put limits on their deity.

For example, why did Jesus have to die on the cross? The standard Christian answer is that he died for our sins. But why did he need to die? The standard Christian answer is that God needed a perfect sacrifice. Why does Mr. All-powerful deity, the being to which not greater being can be conceived NEED a perfect sacrifice or NEED anything else for that matter?

Why do bad things happen to good people (the subject of my recent Examiner article)? The standard Christian answer is that God allows suffering to teach us about good. But why would a perfect deity NEED to cause suffering to teach us about good? Isn’t he God? Can’t he just snap his personified magic fingers and give us the knowledge and wisdom without the suffering?

God gave us Free-will, so that is why Hell exists. Why couldn’t God have given us free-will and made it so that we would all believe and follow him? I know that is a contradiction, but who are we to limit God? If God truly is a being in which no greater being can be conceived, then he can make a square circle if he wanted to. He could also give us free-will and make us follow and believe in him.

Christians can’t get past human logic because Christians are human, but God is allegedly not human. God is allegedly all-powerful. The laws of logic shouldn’t apply to God.

That being the case, the best evidence against the existence of God is Christianity. If God exists, then he doesn’t NEED the blood sacrifice of Jesus. He doesn’t NEED Christians to spread “the word.” He doesn’t NEED to have created Hell. He doesn’t NEED to have any of these elaborate schemes of religion at all. If God wants me to know him, then I would know him. No middlemen needed. But Christians need to limit their all-powerful deity to justify their religion and in so doing, they disprove the very deity they worship.

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  • http://myspace.com/scott888 Scott

    This is exactly why he doesn’t exist, his existence makes no sense. Then you brought up middlemen. Middlemen exist either because God is incompetent or because these Middlemen are using their alleged connection with God to mind control the public.

  • Kate

    exactly

  • http://www.myspace.com/diana_graves Diana

    Yes,

    Gods need nothing & Human’s need no Gods

  • Seth

    We are God’s masterpiece that is being ruined and God wants to save us and since we are free-willed, He needed to show us His love and He needed to give us Himself. Jesus is God so He didn’t need Jesus to die for Him. Jesus died for us. And hell is the result of sin, God tried to warn us not to commit the first sin, but satan led us to fall into evil. He was the founder of sin. He was an angel, but was condemned for being power-hungery and longing to be God. That was when hell was made, to swallow up those who don’t follow God. God could destroy hell, but He also wants to see those who love Him in the end of time. He is showing us that we need Him to live and if we don’t follow Him, then we will die.

    • http://www.dangeroustalk.net Staks

      “God wants to save us”
      “He needed to show us”
      “He needed to give us”
      “God tried to warn us”
      “He also wants to see those who love Him in the end of time”

      You are putting a lot of limits on your all-powerful deity. If I were all-powerful, everything that I wanted would come to pass. I wouldn’t try something and fail and I certainly wouldn’t need anything.

      • Seth

        well, consider what I said after each of those starting comments. Those are needed to verify your point. You have to put huge limits on your beliefs. For instance, you can’t explain how the world began because the Big-Bang theory is out of the question. You can’t explain fossil graveyard either. If you look at what I say after each group of the above listed words, you can see that I put no limits on Him. All that I say makes perfect sense. You just need all the words in there if you think about it.
        OVERALL:NICE TRY, BUT LAME EXCUSE FOR EVEN STARTING A TRY.

  • Seth

    We need God to lead us to paradise, and to Him.

  • Seth

    The man writing this has obviously not read the Bible and knows not who God is.

    • http://myspace.com/scott888 Scott

      Us atheists probably know the bible better than you.

      “We are God’s masterpiece that is being ruined and God wants to save us and since we are free-willed, He needed to show us His love and He needed to give us Himself.”

      If God is perfect then why does this situation even exist?

      “Jesus is God so He didn’t need Jesus to die for Him. Jesus died for us. And hell is the result of sin, God tried to warn us not to commit the first sin, but satan led us to fall into evil.”

      The first sin was the act of gaining knowledge, something ancients didn’t want the masses to possess.

      “He was the founder of sin. He was an angel, but was condemned for being power-hungery and longing to be God. That was when hell was made, to swallow up those who don’t follow God.”

      Satan barely appears in the bible. For the most part, we see a lot more of God doing things like flooding the world or burning cities. Satan also was the snake that represented wisdom.

      “God could destroy hell, but He also wants to see those who love Him in the end of time. He is showing us that we need Him to live and if we don’t follow Him, then we will die.”

      I am not going to love a being that won’t reveal his existence to us. God is imaginary and if he wanted our love, he’d need to stop being so sadistic to us first and reveal himself.

      • Seth

        You do not know the Bible at all!!

  • fernanie2002

    It would seem that humans are Gods equivalent of toys.

  • Seth

    1: The situation is here because we aren’t perfect, we sinned, and God made the way out.
    2: If you call porn, prostitution, and murdering…ect. then you must have a sick Idea of knowledge. Eating the fruit gave us knowledge of sin. It ended up being terrible for us.
    3: The snake did not represent wisdom. The snake was satan coming to kill man.He nearly succeeded. The only reason God did those things was because those were the people who(in a way) spat in God’s face when He gave them the world.
    4: God did reveal Himself when He bent down to us as Jesus. He showed Himself to us! There are over 24000 texts saying that Jesus existed. Many of which were from Romans, Scribes, or even the Court scribes. God did come down and if you knew the Bible then that would be obvious to you.
    OVERALL: IF YOU ARE GOING TO SAY SOMETHING, FIRST KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. YOU OBVIOUSLY DO NOT KNOW YOUR BIBLE.

    • http://myspace.com/scott888 Scott

      “1: The situation is here because we aren’t perfect, we sinned, and God made the way out.”

      Why would a perfect God make us imperfect?

      “2: If you call porn, prostitution, and murdering…ect. then you must have a sick Idea of knowledge. Eating the fruit gave us knowledge of sin. It ended up being terrible for us.”

      Well, the story of Edan isn’t even true anyways but it was supposed to symbolizing that seeking knowledge was bad because the idea was to make the masses ignorant. Knowledge isn’t porn, prostitution or murdering either.

      “3: The snake did not represent wisdom. The snake was satan coming to kill man.He nearly succeeded. The only reason God did those things was because those were the people who(in a way) spat in God’s face when He gave them the world.”

      Back in the ancient world, the snake was the symbol of wisdom like the owl is today. The writers of the bible wanted the masses to know that the snake (wisdom) was evil. You have to consider too that people only a few days old had no common sense and inevitably would have eaten the fruit if the snake told them too regardless.

      “4: God did reveal Himself when He bent down to us as Jesus. He showed Himself to us! There are over 24000 texts saying that Jesus existed. Many of which were from Romans, Scribes, or even the Court scribes. God did come down and if you knew the Bible then that would be obvious to you.”

      There are many texts claiming that many other gods existed too. Why is it that only the Christian god is the one that was the true god when they are all equally valid?

      “OVERALL: IF YOU ARE GOING TO SAY SOMETHING, FIRST KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. YOU OBVIOUSLY DO NOT KNOW YOUR BIBLE.”

      I know what I am talking about, I read the bible objectively, you fail to see the bible for what it is. Rather see it the way you and/or your preacher want to see it.

  • Seth

    1:The “perfect” question is one that I cannot answer, all I can say on that is that God wants to see if we will love and follow Him, that is why he gave us a decision.
    2: No, the Eden story was written to tell us how the world began and how we became sinnful. In knowledge, we then knew what sin was. That led to this world being as it is.
    3: But, the Bible said that the snake was good until satan posessed one and made it do what he wanted it to do, so that he could ruin us. And God told them not to eat from the tree.
    4: But most of the 24,000 texts were non-christians writing, some were Romans even. And they aren’t all equally valid.
    O: I can see from this that you don’t know what you are talking about, but of course, neither do I when I talk of atheism.

    • http://www.dangeroustalk.net Staks

      I’m going to have to break in here.
      1. Why would an all-powerful being be so petty as to want people to follow every thing he tells us to do no matter how stupid those orders may be without any explanation?
      2. The Genesis story is no different than the million or so other creation myths of various other societies. It was a story to explain what at the time could not be explained. Flaming swords and talking snakes? Really? Disney can come up with better than that. But these were bronze-aged people living in a different time. Genesis wasn’t meant to be taken literally. Prior to the Church, Jews never thought of the story as a literal history of the world.
      3. I’m going to call bullshit on this one. Where (chapter and verse) does the Bible say, “the snake was good until satan possessed one and made it do what he wanted it to do, so that he could ruin us.”
      4. It might surprise you to learn that there are actually zero contemporary accounts of Jesus (outside the Bible). That is none. As in zero, zip, zilch. The closest Christian scholars have come up with was Josephus who was born at least 30 years after the alleged Jesus was alleged to have died. In that account, Christian scholars admit that there has been some forgeries in his writings and that the Catholic Church had actually made up a lot of the Jesus stuff. Then there is the Gabriel Scrolls which give us a sort of rough draft on the Jesus story with Simon playing the lead character. These scrolls predate the alleged Jesus by at least 4 years, Just thought you should know. But don’t take my word for all this, look it up yourself. Ask you holy leaders, see what they have to say.
      -Staks

  • Seth

    1: God gave us the explanation of sin. He told us to not go after sin. I think God’s laws are good for us. They make perfect sense. They are what built up nowaday’s society.
    2: I do think it as a real history of the world. It makes more sense than anything atheism has come up with.
    3: Read in Genesis 1:25 that it was good, and maybe the snake did it on it’s own free will or it was done by satan. Not sure on that one.
    4: Actually, there are. I haven’t found any on the internet, but in the book General science by doctor J. Wyell wrote about it. And I expect the caths to forge , but Jesus is too great for pen and paper. In those times(that it was written) no one knew that much.
    PS: Need to stop for a while, I have a non-stop headache.

    • http://www.dangeroustalk.net Staks

      1. Have you read the Ten Commandments? Did you know that the 4th Commandment says that it is a sin punishable by death to work on Saturday? In other words, God think that working on Saturday is equally bad as murdering someone or stealing their ox. Really? That is a good law that makes sense to you? I could go on, but I think I made my point.
      2. Seth, you really need to study archeology and history a little bit. Not only was Genesis just a story, Exodus was also just a story. In fact almost no parts of the Bible are actually historical. It is all fiction. Atheism isn’t a belief system. It does not “come up” with anything.
      3. It doesn’t say anything about Satan possessing anything. In other words, you made it up.
      4. Still waiting for you to name just one contemporary of Jesus who wrote about him (outside the Bible). You said there were 24,000 texts, so it shouldn’t be hard for you to give me just one. Also, you really should look in to the Gabriel Scrolls.
      Seth, you are 13 and haven’t studied this stuff. You have just take the word of the people you trust. But if you research this stuff, you will learn the truth for yourself. You seem to be a smart and inquisitive young man, but you need to inquire more about these things before blindly following what you are told. Don’t believe me, look for yourself. There is a Christian historian that you might find interesting. She isn’t even an atheist. She is a Christian. Check out Karen Armstrong’s books, “A History of God” and “The Bible: A Biography.”

  • Andy Mansfield

    Many scientists are unaware that materialism is an assumption; they simply think of it as science, or the scientific view of reality, or the scientific worldview. They are not actually taught about it, or given a chance to discuss it. They absorb it by a kind of intellectual osmosis

    There are really only two options.

    1. Atheism is not based on materialism, in which case it is an absurdity. (Asserting a universal negative requires universal knowledge -omniscience- absent a exclusionary affirmative proposition)

    2. Atheism is based on materialism, in which case it is a faith based position because materialism has not been proven.

    Seriously there is no meaningful distinction in real life between “without a belief in God ” and “belief that there is no god” In practice – what atheists actually do and say – the latter is far more consistent than the former.

  • http://skepticink.com/dangeroustalk Dangerous Talk

    Wow, there is so much crap here it would take me awhile to respond to it all and I have better things to do. I have pretty much addressed all these issues in previous blog posts anyway — So help yourself.

  • Andy Mansfield

    It seems a little complicated for you.