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Free Will Argument PWND

Christians are always jibber jabbering about how God gave us free will. It seems that free will in the Christian excuse for everything. Why is there suffering in the world? Free will! Why does God send non-believers to Hell? Free will! Original sin? Free will! You get the idea.

Sure there is no evidence for free will and yes, science has figured out that our decision making is based on a combination of nature and nurture behaviorism, but that is all beside the point. Even if we gave Christians their free will concept, it still has a huge fucking problem.

Introducing the fair and just concept of “informed choice.” If I’m a used car dealer and show you two seemingly identical cars, but one is $3000 cheaper only an idiot would choose the more expensive one. But that choice would not be an informed choose since as soon as you get the cheaper car off the lot it literally falls apart on you. In America, we have disclosure laws which make it illegal for companies to fail to disclose certain things. So what does this have to do with free will?

Well, Christians run around the planet telling everyone who will listen (and even some who won’t) that God will torture people for all eternity is they don’t believe and yet they still have the free will not to believe. The problem is that according to these Christians, God expects people to make an uninformed choice. We don’t know what these Christians say is true or not. These Christians could just be used car dealers trying to sell off a lemon of a religion. We remain uninformed by God.

If God wants us to choose between Heaven or Hell, he has to make it an informed choice otherwise it ain’t free will. If God is all-powerful, it shouldn’t be too difficult for him to beam the truth of his existence into the minds of every human being. Then we would be able to make an informed choice (for the record, I would still choose to reject the Biblical God as my Lord and Savior).

Unfortunately God has not beamed said information into the brains of every human on the planet. Many people like me don’t believe in God and many more believe in a different God. Those that do believe in the Biblical God don’t even agree on what that God is like despite the completely well written and clear Holy Book he allegedly wrote (sarcasm).

We are left with a few possibilities. 1. God is an asshole. 2. God is not all-powerful. 3. God is incompetent. 4. God doesn’t exist.

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  • http://angietheantitheist.blogspot.com Angie the Anti-Theist

    hooray :) Well played

  • Garrick McElroy

    C-c-c-c-combo breaker!

  • jmccann

    If free will is so important to Christians why do they indoctrinate children and rob them of free will. Why the need for Popes, Bishops or priests to tell us what to think. In fact you may have noticed that Christians preach one thing but practice the opposite e.g. Two thousand years of torture, murder, rape, incest and genocide from an all loving religion not to mention kiddie fiddling or is this what is meant by suffer little children…………

  • qwertyuiop

    It’s actually consent given under duress. Scaring people into doing things your way. Dare I say it – terrorism.

  • http://dogmaticatheist.wordpress.com A-Dizzle

    I always argue that free will and an all-knowing god are mutually exclusive. If god knows every choice you will make than you can’t possibly have free will, it’s all predetermined.

    • http://www.dangeroustalk.net Staks

      Well A-Dizzle, I have certainly heard that argument before but it doesn’t really hold water. The predictor of an action doesn’t cause the action. But I don’t really want to do the theists work here.

      A word of advice though would be to abandon that argument for more valid, more persuasive, and strong arguments.

      • http://dogmaticatheist.wordpress.com A-Dizzle

        I see your point, predictor isn’t the cause. But, you aren’t taking into account that the according to Christianity, god has a grand plan that is pre-conceived and immutable. Free will is contrary to that idea. If I am unable to make a decision that is outside of god’s preconceived immutable plan, I have no free will. Some Christians may argue that god knows all possible outcomes of all possible choices I can make, but that basically means god has no knowledge of the *exact* course of action I would take (otherwise he has no need to know all possible outcomes of all possible choices) and therefore is not all knowing.

        So I think based on the Christian definition of their god and his capabilities, I think my argument is pretty valid.

        • http://dogmaticatheist.wordpress.com A-Dizzle

          Basically I think what my argument shows is that either there is no free will, or god is not all knowing. You can’t have it both ways.

          • http://www.dangeroustalk.net Staks

            Let me suggest that you rephrase your argument. It isn’t God’s all-knowingness which contradicts Free Will, but rather God’s divine plan which contradicts Free Will. This wold be a more accurate phrasing and a more persuasive argument.

      • Brewer

        Knowing an action before it happens does not cause the action, well said. However I don’t think rephrasing the argument solves anything. Because not everything that happens is God’s perfect will (or plan), it is a common misconception. While not everything that happens is God’s perfect plan, He does know everything that will take place; and there is evidence for this claim.

        • http://www.dangeroustalk.net Staks

          See Brewer there is a problem there. If God is all-knowing AND all-powerful then he can tailor his perfect plan to be… well perfect. According to Christianity, it isn’t just that God passively knows what what will happen, but that he is all-powerful and and actively interferes in the affairs of men (i.e. the natural world). This is basically the Problem of Evil argument.

        • http://dogmaticatheist.wordpress.com A-Dizzle

          Because not everything that happens is God’s perfect will (or plan)

          To make this bold claim would require knowledge of God’s plan. I doubt you have access to this information. Here’s the problem, and Staks touched on this. Christians claim that god is a *perfect* entity. A perfect entity would be required to produce a perfect plan (or he wouldn’t be perfect). If things happen outside of god’s perfect plan, than god cannot be perfect. An all knowing and all powerful being that has a perfect pre-conceived and immutable plan would produce an entirely different set of results than what we see today.

          Simply put, given god’s track record managing our tiny little planet, I wouldn’t even trust him to manage my checkbook. If god exists, he is clearly not all knowing and all powerful, and he most certainly doesn’t have a very good plan.

          He does know everything that will take place; and there is evidence for this claim

          Stating that there is evidence does not in of itself count for evidence. Please provide some, and it must be something specific and not some vague generalization.

  • Brewer

    No, you are wrong. You are arguing off your own logic (or off a miss-led Christian), that is not what the scriptures state. Do you mean perfect in Gods eyes? Well that certainly isn’t the case, for instance, He is “…not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance”. I will get back to you on this tomarrow.

    • http://www.dangeroustalk.net Staks

      Brewer, like I said this is just the Problem of Evil argument which I have already written about. If God doesn’t will that anyone should perish than no one would perish since God is alleged to be all-powerful. If God is not all-powerful, than he is not a god. Is that what you are saying? Are you actually saying that your God is not all-powerful? I need to hear you say those words.

  • http://www.myspace.com/diana_graves Diana

    I think Staks has made the case that free will is not a great excuse for god’s impotence as a perfect being…his none-existence is

    Funny thought, if god were super man reason would be his kryptonite.

  • Brewer

    To make this bold claim would require knowledge of God’s plan. I doubt you have access to this information.

    It’s called the Bible, but I should have stated it defferently. God’s original plan was that man would choose to love and obey Him; simply by not eating from a certain tree. Why did He do this? Well because love is dependent on a persons will; creating a being that has no option to rebel is pointless.

    A perfect entity would be required to produce a perfect plan (or he wouldn’t be perfect).

    God does have a perfect plan, it is summed up in redemption; He closed the gap created by the fall, yet He still will not overide a mans will. But to set things straight, no, I do not know the fullness of God’s plan of course.

    Stating that there is evidence does not in of itself count for evidence. Please provide some

    Gladly! But I don’t have time right now, I will get back to it and Staks comments later

    • http://www.dangeroustalk.net Staks

      How boring and predictable. Brewer, why are you limiting your God?

    • http://dogmaticatheist.wordpress.com A-Dizzle

      Still no evidence. No surprise here, you can’t present what doesn’t exist.

  • Brewer

    I am not limiting my God, I read your articles and I’ll be glad to discuss them. Some athiests have good questions, and some believe and spread lies; I have both in my family. I will get back to this when I can.

    • http://dogmaticatheist.wordpress.com A-Dizzle

      By stating that god has a particular need, i.e. he “needs” to sacrifice Jesus, you are essentially placing a limit on god. An all powerful and all knowing being would not be bound by needs. The being could make anything happen in any way they wanted without contingencies. Contingencies are limits.